Curse

LifeInfusion · Nov 16, 2006, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Vamp > Sundering because it doesn't matter whether you have 12 mastery or 16 mastery, you still do 3 extra damage consistently. 20% AP from Sundering scales with Weapon mastery and is conditional.

Rera · Nov 16, 2006, 11:17 PM // 23:17

There's a thread on team-iq going over the math of why Vamp is always better than sundering, whether you're pressuring or spiking.

Div · Nov 16, 2006, 11:22 PM // 23:22

vamp and zealous are the best for spiking, but who really cares/knows about spiking outside the context of pvp? which probably explains why those pve people are trying to sell the sundering and argue that it's better

Mercury Angel · Nov 16, 2006, 11:37 PM // 23:37

The only benefit of Sundering, convenience of non-weapon swapping aside for laziness, is that its benefits stack with other base damage increasers. If you were, for example, running a Dervish with Vow of Strength, Judge's Insight, and a GFtE spammer, the damage increased would likely be fairly large.

In the vast majority of builds where spiking or pressure is desired, Vamp is the way to go. The degen is such a non-issue, worrying about it is completely ridiculous.

Zui · Nov 16, 2006, 11:46 PM // 23:46

http://www.team-iq.net/forums/showthread.php?tid=1319

(there's also a very long thread in Q&A at guru...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galen

So you're saying that a higher standard deviation in damage is preferable, even if you have to settle for a lower mean damage.

This is certainly true to some extent: I'd rather have a Lightning Orb that misses 4/5 of the time and does 500 damage than the current Orb doing 140 every hit.

However, for adrenal spikes, I don't think this matters. In any adrenal unload typically four blows connect (two hits from each of two warriors); this is enough hits to smooth out the higher standard deviation from using Sundering:

Damage with Vamp vs. 60 AL target: +8.4% 100% of the time
Damage with Sundering vs 60 AL target: +23.1% 20% of the time

Percent extra nonskill damage added from Vamp over four attacks: +8.4% with a standard deviation of 0

Percent extra nonskill damage added from Sundering over four attacks:

Sundering triggers: 1/625 four times, 16/625 three times, 96/625 twice, 256/625 one time, 256/625 zero times.

Mean: Will trigger 500/625=.8 times over the four attacks, adding 4.6% to your base nonskill damage

Standard deviation of number of triggers: 0.8 (from sqrt(mean of squares - square of mean))

Standard deviation of average added damage: 4.6%

So, the added damage from Vampiric is 8.4% +/- 0, and the added damage from sundering is 4.6% +/- 4.6%.

(Yes, SD = mean for this data set.)

Point 1: The added expected deviation of 3.68% of base nonskill damage over four attacks is significantly less than the deviation that is already there from random weapon damage, so this added randomness will just be "noise lost in a larger amount of noise."

Point 2: How many times does sundering have to proc, out of those four hits, to outperform vamp? What is the probability of this happening?

If sundering triggers once, the base nonskill damage of those four hits is increased by 5.78%. If it triggers twice, the base nonskill damage is increased by 11.55%. If it triggers three times, it is increased by 17.33%.

The odds of sundering triggering at least twice are 113/625 = 18.1%, and at least three times 17/625 = 2.7%.

So: An adrenal spike using sundering (four hits) will have its base nonskill damage outperform that of vamp only 18% of the time, and outperform vamp significantly only 3% of the time.

Is this introduction of randomness sufficient to make sundering worthwhile, even though its mean added damage is less than that of vamp? I don't think so.

dr love · Nov 17, 2006, 12:39 AM // 00:39

i still think furious ftw. then you can spike with all your adrenaline skills.

Paperfly · Nov 17, 2006, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Vampiric is actually even better in high-end PvE areas than it is in PvP - the lifetheft isn't subject to damage reduction from high enemy levels and humanly-unattainable armour, which is the principal limiter on PvE damage [see: Elementalists, woes of].

Most importantly, a Vampiric mod usually costs 1/5 as much on the open market as the Sundering equivalent. The fact that it also deals more damage is just gravy (as you're not stuck with that horrible feeling that you ended up with second-best).

Former Ruling · Nov 17, 2006, 05:42 AM // 05:42

For the spike - "Spike" is where the team (or solo in low lvl arenas

) trys to do so much dmg in so little time that the monk cannot heal it fast enough to save the person.

As for Vamp vs Sundering...Vamp. But Zealous and Elemental mods are big ones too, depending on build, and situation.

XvArchonvX · Nov 17, 2006, 06:17 AM // 06:17

Wow, looks like the whole Vamp vs. Sundering debate is up and at it again, lol. Sundering is great...for putting on a backup weapon to show people when you're not attacking. When you start doing something, however, as stated by the many people here, vamp is better. Hands down.

As for the definition of spike, I have always interpereted as a direct action that causes an immediate increase or decrease in health on a single target. A couple examples are as follows:

Blood spike: uses skills like Vamp Gaze, Dark Pact, etc.
Ranger Spike: Dual Shot, Punishing Shot, etc.
Heal Spike: Heal Other, Infuse Health, etc.
Adrenal Spike: Eviscerate, Decapitate, etc.

When two teams fight, damage is also generally described as spike or pressure. Spike is when one team concentrates on a single target with skills that do their full damage as quickly as possible, whereas pressure is causing damage and/or degen to multiple targets in order to wear down the team all at once.

Arcador · Nov 17, 2006, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

There's a thread on team-iq going over the math of why Vamp is always better than sundering, whether you're pressuring or spiking.

Yes, the odds are for Vamp

But of course if we based the game only on math we would use only 8 skills

Anyway Spiking exists since Ultima Online. There was called Nuking or Melting or whatever you wish but it had the same function - 2 or 3 players deliver high amount of combo dmg per sec on one of the other players so fast, that other mages manage not to heal the victim. So was the spike preventing - several casters in a group were devoted to heal only to place healing in the 0.5 sec interval and etc.

I believe the term "Spike" is from the HP chart. When several players deliver high ammout of damage to one player - the team HP makes a huge move down at almost straight line. After ressing that player he returns to full hp (with 15% pen of course) but the Chart now have a "spike" on it.

GWiki is at the same point - http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Spike

Mr Jazzy · Nov 17, 2006, 07:16 AM // 07:16

A spike is an unexpected or highly irregular boost in damage.

e.g., attacking for only 10 damage on a regular basis, but "spiking" 90 damage on an odd hit.

or...

to use blood spike as an example: the rapid output of damage in a small amount of time.

(everyone using 63 dmg gaze at once, dealing around 360 spike damage on one target)

DvM · Nov 17, 2006, 07:24 AM // 07:24

sundering good for spiking? since when did sundering trigger on already armor ignoring bonus damage form attack skills? O.o

Muse of Shadows · Nov 17, 2006, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Many before me have stated what a spike is, so I will not discribe that.

For the Vampiric vs. Sundering though, vampiric is far superior. Why? On average, it has a significantly greater damage output against soft targets, and equal or slightly greater damage output against warriors and paragons. It is further controlable and predictable, where the sundering is random. The health degen is a minute point - 2 life per second, and assuming you attack at a regular speed continusly, you acualy net health, although at a level that isnt realy worth it (I forget the math exactly, but its something like +5 health over 15-20 seconds).

The one real advantage of sundering (other than avoiding the very minor annoyance of -1degen), also happens to be its greatest weakness - on average you will trigger once out of every 5 attacks, but it is quite possable for you to trigger for 5 attacks in a row (0.0032% chance aproxamate). Downside being it is more likely you will NOT trigger for a consecutive 20 attacks.

Put simply, as long as you can cope with the annoyance of the health degen, and any competent player should be able to, vampiric is FAR superior for damage output, with little or no negative side.

Silontes · Nov 17, 2006, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Vamp is a wammo's excuse to bring mending...

Jokes aside, vamp > sundering. End of discussion

Orinn · Nov 17, 2006, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muse of Shadows

The one real advantage of sundering (other than avoiding the very minor annoyance of -1degen), also happens to be its greatest weakness - on average you will trigger once out of every 5 attacks, but it is quite possable for you to trigger for 5 attacks in a row (0.0032% chance aproxamate). Downside being it is more likely you will NOT trigger for a consecutive 20 attacks.

I had to read that one twice, and it's stated funny. If sundering goes off 5 times in a row, then you have a 20% chance still to get the sundering mod to affect the next hit. It SEEMED like, on first read, that you were saying that a good run means you'll get a bad run, which is incorrect.

On reading it again, you were saying that the low chance of a very impressinve sundering chain doesn't make up for the high chance of getting a run of bad luck (20 attacks where it fails to proc once.)

Spirit Of Azrael · Nov 17, 2006, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by DvM

sundering good for spiking? since when did sundering trigger on already armor ignoring bonus damage form attack skills? O.o

QFT
Sunder Argument = PHAILS

zealous/furious FTW!

Gun Pierson · Nov 17, 2006, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Spike for me means high damage output by rangers. There are a few ways yes, vampiric or sundering. In my case being a monk I prefer sundering and I tell you way.

A hornbow (ivory, shadow bow etc) has an inherent chance of 10% armor penetration. Add a 20/20 sundering mod and you get 30%. Add the smiting monk skill +20% armor penetration and you get 50% chance in total. This works for me when I take my two ranger heroes pumped up with some extra dmg ranger skills. Especially against casters or creeps that use the recall of torment thingy. They die in no time before they can copy themselves.

I also prefer this method on rangers as they don't need to run up close to the target and waste time like for example a warrior.

But take what you have the best results with.

pah01 · Nov 17, 2006, 01:14 PM // 13:14

What is actually needed is a forum about equipment here in Guru. Then we need to sticky in it a whole bunch of details about why vamp > sundering. Why weapon swaps are needed for various circumstances - like elemental for warriors, the health vs armour debate and so on.

Then idiots who want to try and tell me that things that are ESTABLISHED facts in GW are forced to read and give assent before they are allowed to post stupidity in the forum.

The same goes for PVP. Some guys wants to say "Yeah but I really like using vigorous spirit on my monk..." Guru says "Sorry but the stupidity meter will not allow you to post here, have a nice day"

Joe

Lord Sojar · Nov 17, 2006, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Speaking of Spike. I got ranger spiked in halls eariler. It hurt. They were using this skill.

Forked Arrow:

Shoot two arrows simultaneously at target foe. If you are under the effects of an Enchantment or Hex, you shoot only one arrow.

Yeh, it hurt.. @_@

tomcruisejr · Nov 17, 2006, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Shocking/Ebon is good though for spiking Warriors with Gladiator armor.